Winter tire change

[Deli_B]

Finally going to run a set of winter tires this year. Since my first time, wondering when you guys make the switch to your winter setups in preparation for our beautiful NEO weather. I was thinking the end of Oct. Sooner? Later?

[shaneinhisroom]

Just change them when the forecast gets below 32F.

[RKT SHIP]

I changed mine out after the first hail and I almost went off the road.....go for studded as well....when you can damn near launch on pure ice you will never look back

[motozachl]

I run hancook winter tires all year long!!!!!




....because that's all I have....

[shaneinhisroom]

Studded? Seriously? So what happens when you need to run an errand and the snow plow has already cleared the roads? Leaves studs to the arctic circle and Alaska.

[MS3Jake]

Studded is overkill for the weather we have here, plus they are too noisy for my taste on pavement. I am running 16" steelies and studless altimax arctics as my winter setup.

[TSi+WRX]

^ I completely agree. Studded tires are, for the most part, complete overkill here in NE-Ohio - particularly if you don't live in the primary snow-belt and/or receive good road-plowing where you live (and commute during hours where the roadways are well-maintained).

But with winter tires, there is a fundamental question that everyone looking to buy them must ask of themselves, and truthfully answer:

- Are you preparing for the most common 3/4 of conditions? or are you instead making compromises so that you'll have the traction you need, for the worst possible 1/4 of the days?

There is no right or wrong answer to that question , as everyone has their own needs and wants: but it is a question that must be truthfully answered, or else you risk not having the proper tire for your needs.

I use a set of "Performance Winters" for most of the winter, switching to studded tires only in the deep-cold months. The "Performance Winters" are more than good enough for even the worst of what NE-Ohio has brought to us for the past 4 years, but at the same time, I chose to go with studded tires when it gets really nasty outside, partially because it's fun (who doesn't like to launch well out in front of traffic, or the looks that the snowplow operators give you as you scoot merrily by in a small import), but also partly because it truly so greatly expands the safety envelope under those conditions (at various points last winter, I was literally the only car that wasn't having any trouble on the roads, and that's including large SUVs and 4x4s).

Please allow me to elaborate:

Studded? Seriously? So what happens when you need to run an errand and the snow plow has already cleared the roads? Leaves studs to the arctic circle and Alaska.

^ Actually, modern studded tires are nowhere near as bad as "our parents'/parents' parents'" studded winter tires.

Studs come into play in that magical area between when the roadway actually freezes until about when the roadway reach an actual 9-deg. F. temperature. Only when it gets colder than that does a "Studless Ice and Snow" tire really start to provide better traction: it's when it's THAT cold that the ice starts to become cold enough that it is actually getting too hard for the studs to chip into the surface of the ice...and you start to look at the macro/micro level traction provided by the compounding of the "friction" tires, instead. However, it's also been shown that if the surface of the ice is completely smooth, the friction tires aren't going to be operating at anywhere near their maximum capabilities, either - the friction tires actually need the studded tires to rough-up the surface of the ice in order for it to perform well.

Stateside tire enthusiasts and retailers will often point to overseas tests of winter tires to justify their own testing criteria and to cross-validate their results. If this is the case, then it is imperative that we not stop simply by grabbing only the data that we want, but instead, to look at all the data. And if that's what we actually do - to look at all the data - then it becomes crystal clear that modern studded winter tires actually confer to their user (provided that the weather conditions are appropriate) tremendous advantages not only when the road is ice-covered, but also, many times, even in clear-wet and clear-dry conditions. Russian enthusiasts and publications were the first to have made this observation, and their speculation that it is a problem of compounding was eventually validated. Simply put, the super-soft compounding that gives the "Studless Ice and Snow" tires an advantage when it is so bitterly cold out actually means that in warmer (we're still talking winter conditions - remember, there's a lot of winter to be had, between 32-deg. F and 9-deg. F) conditions, they are just too soft: and just as they wear away incredibly fast when used in warmer fall and spring weather, they simply are not stiff enough, without the roadway being extremely cold (well below 9 deg. F), to withstand the physical forces of drastic braking and lateral demands. Under such conditions, the slightly harder compound of the studded/studdable winter tires actually prove to be more capable. Look at the wet braking distances (which do *not* suffer because of studs - that old thinking that the studs cause you to skid? the data completely counters that argument) as well as emergency handling ("The Moose Maneuver") numbers. Quantitated data does not lie - "Studless Ice and Snow" tires are not stellar performers at all.

So, if this is the case, that "Studless Ice and Snow" tires are not anywhere near as magical as our favorite tire retailers are making them out to be, then why is it that they still get so much press?

It's because like "All Season" tires, this particular sub-genre is marketed with specific emphasis for the North American market: where drivers (1) will not tolerate the NVH compromises that comes with studded tire use (studs are noisy, especially on the highway), where they (2) still carry the prejudices of their forefathers and are not willing to accept what quantitative data would demand of logic (one of Continental's execs was noted to have said that we Americans made purchase decisions based on "feelings and beliefs," rather than hard data like European shoppers - talk about degrading and embarrassing!), and where (3) laws enacted to preserve roadways can make it impossible or more of a hassle to run studded tires.

But if that's the case, then why does the mass public - including most enthusiasts - think that the "Studless Ice and Snow" tires are so awesome?

It's simply because they've never experienced a top-tier studded winter tire. Look at the Russian or Scandinavian winter tire tests. How many of their top-tier finishers are available to us for purchase, here in North America? Keep in mind that it was two winters before the highly lauded Nokian Hakka 7 finally made its way into our marketplace.....

Even if you ran the "studdable winter" tires without studs, they'll still offer significant benefits: the harder compound will still translate into better clear-wet and clear-dry performance, you'll still experience the snow-moving/slush-expelling capability that comes with those tires' typically more aggressively winterized tread patterns.

Don't get me wrong: I'm not saying that "Studless Ice and Snow" tires do not work.

They do, and they work extremely well. The macro/micro-level capabilities of these "friction" tires to literally whisk away the pressure-generated water-layer (think about skates - it's actually the pressure of the car, compressing the ice, that squeezes out a thin layer of water between the tread and the ice that causes the ice to be so slippery; how slippery ice is is tremendously temperature-dependent) is truly amazing, and they do offer a "next level" performance in slush, snow, and on ice as compared to either "All-Weather" tires or "Performance Winter" tires.

My wife's FXT rides on a set of Michelin X-Ice Xi2s for the winter months. I'd love for her to get studded tires, but she will not tolerate the noise. Both of my in-laws ride on Bridgestone Blizzak WS70s, and my sister-in-law's mother uses the Continental ExtremeWinterContact. If I really thought that my loved ones would not be safe on "Studless Ice and Snow" tires, I would never put them on those tires.

Me?

I go from my summers to a set of Dunlop WinterSport 3Ds for the transitional months - between late-October and mid-December or so, and then again between mid-late February to late-April to mid-May. Before the first big storm, I'll usually switch to my studded Pirelli Winter Carving.

As to when to switch, current data from overseas suggests that there's no need to go by the "45-degrees and switch" advice made popular by retailers and other vested-interest media. Quantitative tests show that even with roadway temperatures well below freezing, most of the less-aggressive "Summer" tires will still stop shorter and hold the road better than either All-Season tires or various winter tires. Traction for the "Summer" tires become problematic, however, as soon as there's frozen precipitation on the roadway - so while it is actually safer to play the change-over close to the chest and delay it for as long as reasonably possible, you absolutely *must* keep a careful eye on the weather and judge your relative-risk accordingly.

Relevant links:

2011 winter test compilation, courtesy of outahere -
http://legacygt.com/forums/showthrea...ht=winter+test

For those of you screaming to the monitor "yeah, where did you (I) get your (my) "data" from?" You'll first note that it is all still borne out by the latest round of testing above, but you'll find a lot more discussion from the 2010 season, of which I listed some reference threads below:

http://legacygt.com/forums/showthrea...ht=winter+test
http://legacygt.com/forums/showthrea...ht=winter+test
http://legacygt.com/forums/showthrea...ht=winter+test
http://legacygt.com/forums/showthrea...ht=winter+test
http://legacygt.com/forums/showthrea...ht=winter+test
http://legacygt.com/forums/showthrea...ht=winter+test

Yes, I *love* winter tires.

[RKT SHIP]

After dealing with constant driving of 271 from Painesville during late hours last year I really want to go with studded. The plows hit that section last. I don't know if you guys deal with it but it will be clear on 90 then when it splits to 271 it would just be unplowed roads. I believe it is almost completely neglected it seems. Since that is my primary traffic area I want to have a better tire than I had. Dont get me wrong My Evo had no real troubles on Snow setting and my eagle Gts but I would prefer to have that skim chance negated......although I need to get her up and running.....my tank I mean my aurora runs great in the snow.....gotta love a V8 sitting over top of the drive wheels.
As far as making a quick run to the store on studded tires....ill drive the aurora......

[TSi+WRX]

For NE-Ohio, if you can bear with the NVH, I'm firmly convinced that a top-tier studded tire is the way to go.

- Our temperatures typically are above 10 F. This means that in most situations, these slightly-harder compound tires will actually offer better emergency handling than "Studless Ice & Snow" tires, which, due to the relatively mild temperatures, are actually too soft to perform well.

- Our laws allow for studded tires to be on-vehicle from the beginning of November through the 15th of April. Unless you travel frequently to stud-forbidden areas, this means that you can literally go "all winter" without having to dismount these tires, if you so desire.

And again, while NVH is an unavoidable compromise, one should understand that what was once thought of as weaknesses of studded winter tires - that they are somehow less adept or even outright dangerous on clear-dry or clear-wet surfaces - are no longer true of the top-tier performers, and that this has indeed been disproved via quantitative testing that spans the past half-decade, if not twice that, and is cross-confirmed by numerous of our friends overseas who see winters that are much more harsh than our own. If one were to maintain that modern premium studded winter tires are somehow "dangerous" in that respect, then one MUST also concede that "Studless Ice & Snow" tires are just as - and even moreso - dangerous.

Yes, stud-ejection remains an issue, but really, unless you are spending all of the entire winter doing nothing but parking-lot doughnuts and repeatedly clutch-drop launching the car with the drive wheels spinning at Warp 3 , you're not going to be losing many - if any - studs. I spent the better part of last winter frequenting the drive between Warrensville Hts. and Stonewall Range - and I'm pretty sure I didn't lose one stud. And remember, even if you did eject a stud or few, from studies by the DOT/SAE dating from as early as the 1970s, there's no need to worry about the potential of the stud penetrating into the cabin (the forces acting on the tire means that unless it's something truly freaky, stud ejection happens on the trailing end, and the stud is ejected out and behind the vehicle) or doing any more damage to a following vehicle than a hit from a rock or other object of the same mass: which is minimal, at worst.

Part of all this, though, is to be sure you're using the top-tier tires. This is somewhat harder to do than it looks at first glance, since the North American market just doesn't see much of the studded sub-genre, at all, to say less of the premium top-tier models.

The Nokian Hakka 7 is a sure-bet, but the Hakka 5 isn't bad, either - if you can find that old tire at a healthy discount. Likewise, Pirelli's Winter Carving/EDGE tire is a very, very good bet as long as you can find one with manufacture date that's newer than 2009.

The standby General Altimax Arctic (Gislaved NordFrost 3), which along with the Nokian and the Pirelli is one of the few choices available to us here in the US, is still a very-good-for-the-money purchase, and is arguably better than the NordFrost 5....but it is unknown as to how it would match up to the modern Pirelli Winter Carving/EDGE, which, although it seems that the tread pattern has not changed, apparently the compounding has, over the years, to have kept it within the top third of recent European tests.

Again, I want to clarify that I'm not saying that everyone here should go out and get studded tires this winter.

Rather, I'm simply trying to clear up some continuing misconceptions.

In the spectrum of "winter tires," I truly believe that there is a role for everything: "All Weather," "Performance Winter," "Studless Ice & Snow," or "Studded (studdable) Winter." In the end, it's the unique use/needs of the driver that determines what's the better/best fit.

[jmikolich]

I'm picking mine up again, next week will get them mounted the following week and should have them on second week of november, I will be running a set of Dunlop studless tires... in 225/45/17 first time my car has had OEM sized tires on it in years.. lol

and yes, I am a firm believer that the "modern" AWD system on Subaru's allows for greater flexibility in tire choice. While my dunlops are quite a soft compound and they feel soft and squishy on dry pavement, coupled with a max rating of 95mph they are certainly compromising on the dry but bitter cold days, on the days where it starts snowing at 9am and I don't leave work until 5pm it makes the drive on back country roads a heck of a lot less stressful, studded just makes too much noise personally.. though I'd be curious to hear studded against the tires on the car now (Evo V12)